Attendees

  • Stephen Doel (Linaro)
  • David Rusling (Linaro)
  • Kiko (Linaro)
  • Roger Teague (ARM)
  • Paul McKenney (IBM)

  • Vijay Pasam (TI)
  • Andrea Gallo (ST-Ericsson)
  • Sree Kumar (Samsung)
  • Yves Vandervennet (Freescale)

Information

Guest Participants

  • David Mandala (Canonical TSC Advisor)
  • Mark Orvek (MontaVista TSC Advisor)


TSC Face to Face Dallas 11th/12th January 2011

Goals

  • Set the scene for the work in this cycle
  • Review previous cycle
  • Preview this cycle

Two Day Agenda

  • Tuesday 11th January 2011
    • PM: Advisor's slot
    • Evening: TSC Dinner
  • Wednesday 12th January 2011
    • All day, face to face TSC meeting


Agenda

Day 1: Tuesday Afternoon

Time

Chair / Presenter

Contents

2.30 - 3.00

David

Welcome and introductions

3.00 - 4.00

Mark Orvek

MontaVista TSC Advisor

4.00 - 4.10

-

Break

4.10 - 5.10

David Mandala

Canonical TSC Advisor

5.10 - 5.20

-

Break

5.20 - ~6.00

David

Agree Wednesday agenda

7.00 -

-

Evening meal

Minutes

Montavista: Challenges and Opportinities (Mark Orvek, Jim Lewis)

  • Linaro - Challenges and Opportunities.pdf

  • Challenges
    • Competition from Yocto?
      • Primarily Windriver/Intel backed
      • Completely tied to Poky/OE
      • Consumed linaro-toolchain
      • It's mostly a build system
      • Kiko: very useful for the roll-your-own market, less so for others
      • Also working on developer tools
    • ACTION: Probably worth issuing a blog post and a joint statement with LF/Yocto about Linaro; maybe wiki documentation
      • Make it clear that Linaro is here to fix the problems that nobody else is fixing
      • ACTION: Yocto may be interested in using more Linaro components
    • Developers need to contribute to both kernel.org and Linaro?
      • Paul: we push things into both areas
    • ACTION: check on LWN statistics on Kernel, how do we ensure Linaro is mentioned?
    • Working with OSS distributions
    • ACTION: Figure out what Linaro wants to do about support
      • Open ad-hoc support on mailing lists
      • We will offer escalation support if a partner provides support
    • Balacing needs and requirements from primary members
      • Kiko: Haven't been significant conflicts up to now
      • David: Good input from members up to now
    • Evolution and growth
      • History is that consortiums do fail
      • Having our own engineering resources helps
      • CELF challenges
        • Fastboot filesystem
        • CELF 1.0
        • Building specifications and code
        • Code was dropped
      • David: growth challenges
        • Size of TSC
        • Broaden technical scope
          • ... when we are beyond phase I?
          • Automotive, server, etc
        • Growing influence in OSS and ARM
    • Continued investment by primary members
  • Opportunities
    • Position ARM to be more competitive with other arches
    • Interaction with customers resulting in more design wins
      • When customers come to Montavista they have already decided what platform they will use
    • Expand ecosystem in ARM Linux
      • Citrix browser plug-in example
      • Flash/Skype/Java
      • Binary Drivers/Codecs
      • Montavista has good expertise in the legal area
      • ACTION: question to the TSC: is it worth doing something as a group?
    • Help ARM expand into other markets
    • Use other open source projects without requiring official endorsement
    • More focus on A-Z embedded
      • Not focused on cross-compiling at the moment
      • True gap is in userland recipes, which are missing for lots of components
        • Kiko: Interested in more specific use cases of cross-compilation stories
        • ACTION: publish the list of packages that can be cross-compiled from our Ubuntu-based images
    • Working Group suggestions
      • Multicore/Virtualization: KVM on ARM?
        • Enterprise workloads
        • AMP; assymetric multicore on cores of different ISAs
      • Real-time
        • Real-time patches; "one day they will be in the kernel"
        • Important technology, and it works on Linux; why are people are still using RTOS?

Canonical: Challenges of Developing & Deploying an ARM Linux Distribution (David Mandala)

  • Challenges from a distribution perspective
    • No single ARM source kernel tree
      • Conflicting patches make it impossible to coalesce BSPs into a single source tree
    • Vendors have little interest in upstreaming code
      • Distributions end up testing
      • Mark: vendors have gotten better over the years
      • Kiko: Linaro Landing Team work has this as its primary goal; not there yet, but should solve both problems at once
    • Userland
      • NEON optional; requires code to be smart
      • Applications hacked up applications to run optimally on device X, but not on others
      • Thumb2 not well tested and porting still necessary
        • Mark: backtrace supported in thumb2?
        • Mark: Thumb2 quite used (4 out of 10 projects?)
        • Mark: hard-float seen for the first time
      • Kiko: do note the ARM porting project being worked out
    • Binary Drivers
      • Licenses restrict redistribution
      • Require specific kernels; not really ready to be built out-of-tree
        • Kiko: would it be enough for you if it was ready to be built out of tree?
        • nVidia model does work, and we could use it
        • The stub needs to be rebuildable
      • Missing X and OpenGLES drivers
        • We need something that actually boots up to graphics
        • Framebuffer is the bare minimum
      • Power Management different per-platform
        • Suspend/Resume/Hibernate
        • Kiko: Talk to Amit K about specific plans; we're already invested in this
      • Audio Drivers
      • Jim: Every customer wants the ability to do field-upgrading of devices
  • From an OEM perspective
    • Conflict between working on trunk and stable
      • BSP uses kernel with a different version than distribution kernel
        • Mismatch with distribution userspace
    • Why do Ubuntu ARM projects take longer than x86
      • SoC and board unreliability, custom OEM/ODM bootloader, image installation and upgrade is custom
        • Boot speed requirements; in particular for automotive
        • Display needs to be active before the kernel boots
        • Mostly happens because vendors historically used another bootloader
        • None of TI's customers use uboot
        • Montavista has uboot used in most customers
        • Security is probably the biggest issue
      • Factory process isn't well-suited to ARM devices
        • NAND flash issues; how are bad blocks handled?
      • Kernel
      • Graphics and Codecs
      • Target market demands for the product
        • Unrealistic expectations from OEM and ODMs
      • Codecs, Flash, Skype and other ISV software not available
        • Mark reinforces an Ecosystem WG
        • Linaro could make a big difference for Adobe
    • Suggestions
      • Legal education
        • Looks like a Binary Driver Conformance Program for Joe Bates
      • Push a specific bootloader
      • Unified kernel (device tree single source tree, single binary long-term)
    • If it's attached to the Internet, field upgradability is important

Actions

Number

Action

Owner

State

2011-01-05:1

Kiko

Kiko to check with Jesse and Alexander on his knowledge of any plans for graphics change in Honeycomb

2011-01-05:2

All

bring to the meeting considerations on the last cycle and things we'd like to see changed

Done

2011-01-05:3

All

Benchmarking information from each member: what's used internally, what sort of measurement is done, sharing policy

Obsoleted, will hold a discussion at an upcoming TSC teleconference

2011-01-05:4

All

All attendees to sprint need to be listed

Done

2011-01-11:1

Kiko, David

Consider a blog post and / or a joint statement with LF/Yocto about Linaro

2011-01-11:2

Kiko, David

What Linaro components are appropriate for Yocto?

2011-01-11:2

Rob Coombs

Check on LWN statistics on Kernel, how do we ensure Linaro is mentioned?

2011-01-11:2

All

Do we want to do more with binary drivers (flash etc)? Could be an action for Joe.

2011-01-11:2

Kiko

publish the list of packages that can be cross-compiled from our Ubuntu-based images

Next Meeting

Wednesday, 12th January 2011

TSC/2011-01-11 (last modified 2011-01-17 10:14:06)